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Poly & Esther meet Ben tonite
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François
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MessagePosté le: Lun 19 Avr - 16:21 (2010)    Sujet du message: Poly & Esther meet Ben tonite Répondre en citant

François a écrit:
Bryan a écrit:
my guess is that it would be different, granular may be porous, which may absorb/damp to a higher degree. However, I must stress this is conjecture, I really don't know. It is very common in science to do an experiment and end up with more questions than answers. Sometimes it is unavoidable, until one understands the situation more.


OK, this means I will prepare a sample of polyester charged with betonite powder for tests........ Rolling Eyes

Fine with you Question

hats off


Bryan,

Warm your tools up, the sample of powdred bentonite in polyester has been done Exclamation
I just need to square it a little bit.


hats off


Dernière édition par François le Sam 15 Mai - 06:48 (2010); édité 1 fois
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Bryan
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MessagePosté le: Lun 19 Avr - 23:15 (2010)    Sujet du message: Poly & Esther meet Ben tonite Répondre en citant

tres bien, I am at home for a while.

I tried to load a whole page of damping factor values, but for some reason something went wrong, and it didn't happen. I'll try again soon.
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MessagePosté le: Mar 20 Avr - 14:09 (2010)    Sujet du message: Poly & Esther meet Ben tonite Répondre en citant

Bryan a écrit:
tres bien, I am at home for a while.
The sample has left, keeping fingers crossed that Rap won't send more ashes Very Happy
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MessagePosté le: Ven 23 Avr - 20:58 (2010)    Sujet du message: Poly & Esther meet Ben tonite Répondre en citant

well well, I should have guessed (I did, and was wrong, again).

Just tested the sample from François, made from fine kitty litter and polyester resin.

damping factor was estimated as 0.205 with a density of 1348 kg/m³

as comparison, the other polyester samples are;

                                                 damping factor          density

Polyester resin, non-filled                0.341               1256 kg/m³
Polyester resin, lead filled               0.351                2168 kg/m³
Polyester resin, Bentonite filled       0.399               1536 kg/m³


Polyester resin, (fine bentonite)      0.205               1348 kg/m³


I checked the 'bentonite filled' result again, and obtained a value of 0.39, good agreement.



something strange with these results. François, is anything different with the latest sample, new batch of resin, different mix ratio?


It is important we understand these results.


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MessagePosté le: Sam 24 Avr - 06:27 (2010)    Sujet du message: Poly & Esther meet Ben tonite Répondre en citant

Bryan a écrit:
well well, I should have guessed (I did, and was wrong, again).

Just tested the sample from François, made from fine kitty litter and polyester resin.

damping factor was estimated as 0.205 with a density of 1348 kg/m³

as comparison, the other polyester samples are;

                                                 damping factor          density

Polyester resin, non-filled                0.341               1256 kg/m³
Polyester resin, lead filled               0.351                2168 kg/m³
Polyester resin, Bentonite filled       0.399               1536 kg/m³


Polyester resin, (fine bentonite)      0.205               1348 kg/m³


I checked the 'bentonite filled' result again, and obtained a value of 0.39, good agreement.



something strange with these results. François, is anything different with the latest sample, new batch of resin, different mix ratio?


It is important we understand these results.




Bryan,

Yes the resin is a different one, I mean, from a different supplier.
These results are disturbing Sad
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MessagePosté le: Sam 24 Avr - 06:40 (2010)    Sujet du message: Poly & Esther meet Ben tonite Répondre en citant

If you just look at the density it seems that the powder polyester sample contains much less bentonite than the granulate one (assuming polyester density of 1,2 and bentonite around 2,5).
François, did you measure in both cases the proportion of resin and filling ?
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MessagePosté le: Sam 24 Avr - 06:54 (2010)    Sujet du message: Poly & Esther meet Ben tonite Répondre en citant

olivier a écrit:
If you just look at the density it seems that the powder polyester sample contains much less bentonite than the granulate one (assuming polyester density of 1,2 and bentonite around 2,5).
François, did you measure in both cases the proportion of resin and filling ?

Olivier,

Your conclusions seems to be right.

Strange thing is that though I did not measured exactly the proportion of bentonite I mixed with the resin, I remember to have used the same scoop to take the bentonite from the bag and it was more or less filled in the same way.... Not very scientific, I admit Embarassed
Quantity of resin was in both cases the same: 1/4L


hats off
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MessagePosté le: Sam 24 Avr - 07:06 (2010)    Sujet du message: Poly & Esther meet Ben tonite Répondre en citant

Do you mean that the same sccop was filled first with granulates and second with powder or in both case with granulates and one of them reduced to powder afterwards ?
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MessagePosté le: Sam 24 Avr - 07:34 (2010)    Sujet du message: Poly & Esther meet Ben tonite Répondre en citant

olivier a écrit:
in both case with granulates and one of them reduced to powder afterwards ?


This way, yes.
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MessagePosté le: Sam 24 Avr - 07:45 (2010)    Sujet du message: Poly & Esther meet Ben tonite Répondre en citant

Well, shouldn't be 15% difference in the density in that case.
How did you manufacture the samples? Did you use the same mould for all of them or did you make a larger piece and then cut the samples to the same size ?

PS : are you sure the number of scoops of bentonite for 1/4 liter of resin is the same in both cases Wink
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MessagePosté le: Sam 24 Avr - 07:50 (2010)    Sujet du message: Poly & Esther meet Ben tonite Répondre en citant

olivier a écrit:
Well, shouldn't be 15% difference in the density in that case.

Agree.
Citation:
How did you manufacture the samples? Did you use the same mould for all of them or did you make a larger piece and then cut the samples to the same size ?

The mould is to be lost, and it's bigger than final size: the sample is the cut to the size needed for Bryan's measurements.

Citation:
PS : are you sure the number of scoops of bentonite for 1/4 liter of resin is the same in both cases Wink

Not 100% sure.

But to be noted, though it might not be relevant, the resin is not the same in last case, still polyester but from another supplier.
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MessagePosté le: Sam 24 Avr - 08:05 (2010)    Sujet du message: Poly & Esther meet Ben tonite Répondre en citant

I think it will be difficult to make relevant comparison between granulate and powder in these conditions.

What strucks me the most is that the damping factor of pure polyester is greater than the one of the sample with bentonite powder. Seems that the law between damping and particle size is not linear Confused .... may be decreases to a minimum for fine particles and then grows for larger ones, strange...(or it's only the mass parameter which is preponderant and increase greatly the damping factor).
Other conjecture, the DF measured for pure polyester is wrong wondering .

As Bryan anticipated, more questions than answers Wink .
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MessagePosté le: Sam 24 Avr - 08:13 (2010)    Sujet du message: Poly & Esther meet Ben tonite Répondre en citant

olivier a écrit:
I think it will be difficult to make relevant comparison between granulate and powder in these conditions.

Yes, will have to make new samples with stricter procedure.........

Citation:

What strucks me the most is that the damping factor of pure polyester is greater than the one of the sample with bentonite powder.

No, it's not:
-Polyester resin, non-filled            0.341
-Polyester resin, Bentonite filled    0.399

hats off
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MessagePosté le: Sam 24 Avr - 08:28 (2010)    Sujet du message: Poly & Esther meet Ben tonite Répondre en citant

François a écrit:

No, it's not:
-Polyester resin, non-filled            0.341
-Polyester resin, Bentonite filled    0.399

hats off
Yes it is!
Read carefully, DF for resin + bentonite powder : 0,2
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MessagePosté le: Sam 24 Avr - 08:42 (2010)    Sujet du message: Poly & Esther meet Ben tonite Répondre en citant

olivier a écrit:
François a écrit:

No, it's not:
-Polyester resin, non-filled            0.341
-Polyester resin, Bentonite filled    0.399

hats off

Yes it is!
Read carefully, DF for resin + bentonite powder : 0,2
Embarassed My mistake, you are correct.

So, more air in the mix Question
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