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Grado black et L78

 
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Abstract2004
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MessagePosté le: Jeu 28 Juil - 09:14 (2011)    Sujet du message: Grado black et L78 Répondre en citant

Bonjour a tous,

Je compte mettre sur ma L78 une cellule Grado Black en remplacement de Ma Shure M75, quand pensez vous quelle est la qualité de cette cellule

Merci
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PublicitéSupprimer les publicités ?
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MessagePosté le: Jeu 28 Juil - 20:51 (2011)    Sujet du message: Grado black et L78 Répondre en citant

Question à se poser d'abord : sur quel bras tu vas l'installer? Compare sa compatibilité dans ce tableau
Avec le bras Lenco L75 (23g de masse dynamique) tu te retrouves à 7 Hz de résonance du bras. Limite, mais cela peut marcher sur des vinyles pas trop ondulés.

Autre chose à savoir, les cellules Grado sont susceptibles à la ronflette, car la cellule n'est pas blindée contre les champs magnétiques.

A part cela, cette Grado a de bonnes specs sur le papier et beaucoup de fans ...

Si tu peux l'essayer avant achat, ce serait mieux ...

hats off
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MessagePosté le: Jeu 28 Juil - 20:58 (2011)    Sujet du message: Grado black et L78 Répondre en citant

je vais l'installer sur le bras d'origine, sinon j'avais pensé a la black pearl de sumiko
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MessagePosté le: Jeu 28 Juil - 21:11 (2011)    Sujet du message: Grado black et L78 Répondre en citant

Abstract2004 a écrit:
je vais l'installer sur le bras d'origine, sinon j'avais pensé a la black pearl de sumiko
Hop Wink un peu de lecture :

http://www.audiophilefr.com/Site/forum2/demandes-de-conseils-aide-aux-audio…

Il y a bien mieux que cette Sumiko, même leur Haut de gamme ne m'a pas impressionné. Et puis > 90€ pour une simple pointe sphérique ça va pas la tête ??

Et pourquoi pas une DENON DL110 ? Un peu plus chère, mais tu regretteras pas ! j'adore

Quel genre de musique tu écoutes le plus ?
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MessagePosté le: Ven 29 Juil - 05:57 (2011)    Sujet du message: Grado black et L78 Répondre en citant

bonjour,

de la pop, et je me suis mis au jazz
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MessagePosté le: Ven 29 Juil - 07:38 (2011)    Sujet du message: Grado black et L78 Répondre en citant

et que pensez vous de la Goldring Electra
Merci
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MessagePosté le: Ven 29 Juil - 07:43 (2011)    Sujet du message: Grado black et L78 Répondre en citant

Comment fonctionne les hertz pour les bras plus c'est elevé meilleurs c'est Question
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MessagePosté le: Ven 29 Juil - 10:57 (2011)    Sujet du message: Grado black et L78 Répondre en citant

Voilà :http://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge_resonance_evaluator.php

Il faut être dans le vert. Wink

@+!
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MessagePosté le: Lun 1 Aoû - 00:04 (2011)    Sujet du message: Grado black et L78 Répondre en citant

Bonjour,
L'Electra pourrait convenir mais, tout comme la Black Pearl, est chère pour ce que c'est.
La Grado P Black ? Tu ne gagneras pas grand chose par rapport à la M75, à supposer que ce soit mieux, ce qui est loin d'être certain. Et une M75 montée avec un diamant elliptique la surclasse, amha, sans parler des risques de "ronflette" avec la Grado.

Une DL 110 devrait effectivement être un bon choix pour un bras de L78 ou mieux, une DL 103 qui est le choix "royal" pour le bras lourd de la Lenco mais... c'est une MC à bas niveau de sortie, donc préampli MC ou transfo obligatoire.

Il y a aussi l'Ortofon MC Turbo qui est une MC à haut niveau de sortie :
http://www.williamthakker.eu/Ortofon-MC-1-Turbo-High-Output-Tonabnehmer_c32…
ou celle-ci en MM, plus modeste mais qui m'a fait bonne impression avec ce bras (très dynamique et ouverte) :
http://www.williamthakker.eu/Ortofon-FF-15-E-FF15E-Tonabnehmer_c32-317-319_…

Bruno.
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MessagePosté le: Lun 1 Aoû - 04:04 (2011)    Sujet du message: Grado black et L78 Répondre en citant

Jean,

Mario and Bruno have addressed the technical matters very nicely, so I will, instead, talk about practical and philosophical matterx.

First, in general, rock and/or popular music is relatively easy to reproduce when ccompared with classical and jazz material.

Jazz records are in a class by themselves. Many jazz lovers listen intensely to the music and play their records over and over again, listening for more and more inner details in the music. Like most other people, they didn't replace their needles often and didn't keep their records clean. Therefore, many of our beloved used jazz records are in very poor condition. And many jazz LPs, here in the USA, were badly made in the first place.

The best way to listen to records like this is with styli that will be able to ride over groove areas that are severely worn, and there are a few different types of styli that can help with this. The needle matters much more than does the cartridge body. It is good to build up a collection of needles, each one of a different shape and dimensions. If you have never tried differnt needles with the same record, you can have quite a surprise. Often, a needle of lower performance will reveal much more music than you will hear from a very costly audiophile cartridge.

Installing the cartridge properly matters much more than does the quality of the cartridge.

For these reasons, I favor the use of versatile and practical cartridges. With a moving coil cartridge, you are stuck with the needle that comes with it. And there is also the drawback that replacing the stylus is quite expensive. And a standard magnetic cartridge for which the manufacturer only offers one needle is only more sensible because it costs less to use.

So, a cartridge that allows the quick and safe replacecment and interchange of needles is very good to own. Grado allows you to replace your own needle, but the company has never offered a range of different styli for their cartridges. And, even though I have been a professional and tend to be careful, I recently destroyed a Grado stylus by accident. I think that their needles are good, but they are vulnerable and not strong. Changing a Grado stylus must be done very carefully!

These are the practical brands that can allow you to build a stylus collection slowly and to change your needles safely: Ortofon, Stanton/Pickering, Shure, and Nagaoka. You can mix original needles with ones that have been re-tipped with special sizes, and in some cases, you will also be able to buy good aftermarket replacements. Some of the products from these companies have been of outstanding audiophile quality. The sound of a cartridge is really the sound of its stylus.

So, this is my recommdation for you.
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MessagePosté le: Lun 1 Aoû - 22:51 (2011)    Sujet du message: Grado black et L78 Répondre en citant

Hi Richard,

Thanks  for reminding us of the essential thing and giving us these good advices. The cartridges you mentioned are all good choices and they offer many possibility to experiment with the various needle shapes. A good setup of the cartridge is of course the point. I use to spend a lot of time to fine tune the settings and have to admit that even the most humble cartridge will sing when you hit the sweet spot. MMs are also my favorites. Compared to high end MCs they can't compete in resolution and dynamics, but then I also have a CD Player ... hmmm ... The MMs are just much more fun ... But I must say here that the Denon DL110 is just one of the best bang for the buck in the carts market, the DL160 was even more so, but Denon stopped producing it.

Regards,
 
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MessagePosté le: Mer 3 Aoû - 08:08 (2011)    Sujet du message: Grado black et L78 Répondre en citant

Mario,

I have been meaning to tell you how impressed I am with how well you write in English. I feel embarrassed by comparison. I have never been able to learn another language in a school, although I seem to have a natural affinity for other tongues when they are in a musical context. I tried to learn Spanish, German, and Italian.

My country is so large compared with your nations in Europe, and perhaps this has been a lot of my problem: we speak only English over so many kilometers. Your French language has been especially difficult for me, and it was when I was an announcer at a classical music radio station. I pronounced the other languages well enough.

Regarding the proper setup of cartridges; yes: I think that it is much more satisfying to align a poor cartridge properly than to mount a costly one sloppily. The curiosity is that our needles can sound as good as they do, considering that they are out-of-alignment almost all the time in most arms. It is so difficult to align a stylus with the precision that is actually required that it has got to be improper even in a linear tone arm.

I have recently set up a turntable specifically to use for screening many LPs. I have acquired more than 200 used records for no cost, and this is after I sorted out the 700 more that I did not want. So, I have one turntable attached to my TV sound system just for the job of reviewing these records. I have set up three cartridges for this job:
- Pickering XV15 with a good imitation Stanton 681SE stylus (high-quality broadcast conical).
- Stanton 500 with Pickering 1.0 mil mono stylus.
- One of perhaps 300 Audio Technica bodies with a fake model number and a cheap conical needle.
All the needles are new.

This last one is rather interesting because the genuine stylus has a diamond that's mounted on a carbon fiber cantilever. I have never listened to it before, and it has been maybe 20 years since I have listened to an AT cartridge. My first impression was that I was impressed: the channel separation, the detail, and the presence were all better than those aspects from the two Stanton products.

But then, I realized that the reason for this excellence is due to the fact that the cartridge is too bright: the high frequencies are too pronounced. And when the highs are too "forward," of course, the sound will have better separation, detail, and presence. And wrong! The truth is that this is a pretty cheap needle of no particular excellence. Its sound is peaky. We can be fooled. The Stantons are so much better! Frankly, although channel separation is always listed as a specification and is held up as an advantage by equipment reviewers when it is high, I think that it may be the most meaningless specification for phono cartriges. We really need very little of it to have the psychological cues that we need to separate left from rignt and to envision where instruments are across a horizontal stage. A radio station near me in San Francisco that plays "Top 40" popular music broadcasts a signal with only 2 dB of stereo separation. And, although the spacial cues are ajusted and exaggerated by a special piece of FM broadcast equipment, a sophisticated modern "limiter," the 2 dBs is enough! So, although this may be hard for some audiophiles to believe, in the real world, my attitude has become that if I can hear it, it's good enough. I have just blasphemed the religion!

All of the many cartridges and styli that I have written about in my book have good channel separation; when writing the book, I ignored this specification altogether.
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MessagePosté le: Mer 3 Aoû - 22:35 (2011)    Sujet du message: Grado black et L78 Répondre en citant

Hi Richard,

Thanks, I really appreciate your kind words. Indeed I have been lucky to grow up in Luxembourg, the smallest country in Europe except the Vatican. From our 500 000 inhabitants more than 40% are not native luxembourgers from more than 100 nationalities, myself I'm italian. Luxembourg is also a country on the physical and cultural border of France and Germany, so we use to communicate in both these languages as well as a local one (luxembourgish). And all the immigrants bring along their culture and their tongue. But this is not same in every European country.

The sound of the AT cartridges as described by you, is exactly what I have come to experience. When I started back listening vinyl four years ago, I must say I was much impressed by the ATs and I posted that here on this forum. Meanwhile I have a more balanced opinion, especially after hearing and using other carts. I have conicals, different ellipticals and line contacts ATs and all have a rather bright and forward sound. I don't use them much anymore, except in my metal rock moments. On all other recordings fatigue is settling in after only a few hours of listening. I still have to find my dream cart, and I still have to learn so much. I hear so much of the Pickerings and the Stantons, I must get one and make my own opinion.Some years ago I had tried for a few days a 681EEE but never came to make it work on my then stock L75 with original tonearm. The concept of the brush was also irritating me, and probably I didn't set it up correctly with the brush engaged.

About channel separation, my personal experience and feeling is that too much of it will kill the music flow and anyway will produce an unnatural presentation. In my room I can't reproduce a huge stage and the music stays centered within the 2 meter distance of my speakers. Instead I prefer a deep soundstage and a layered presentation, which enables me to single out the instruments and the events happening. I listen most to classical music, owning a lot of mono recordings, so channel separation who cares ? I guess there is a lot to be improved, but I'm quite happy now.

Greetings from our tiny country !
Regards,
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MessagePosté le: Jeu 1 Sep - 22:48 (2011)    Sujet du message: Grado black et L78 Répondre en citant

Hi, Mario.

I just re-read your last post and here are a couple of comments.
First, I have found that I prefer to place my loudspeakers fairly close to each other. This often provides an unexpectedly wide sound stage that extends far beyond the speakers. I think that this wide effect is caused by phase differences between the channels. The effect can be uncanny when watching a movie using 2 speakers and hear a sound effect that seems to be coming from the street that's outside the house to the left.

I have observed that in some recording studios, the monitor speakers are placed this way, too. I think that audiophiles place far too much attention on reproduction from the turntable (CD player) onward, and virtually no attention on how the recordings were made in the first place. Understanding the recordings can reveal so much that is important. Logically, if we re-create the conditions in the studio contrtol room, we will hear the recording as the record producer did, and how the record producer intended for us to hear the recording in our homes. I assure you that professional sound and recording people do not live in same world as the audiophiles do, but these are the people who make the recordings that we love.

In rock music, the entire ambience is artificial in a few different ways, which is neither right nor wrong. In classical music recording, a good producer will attempt to simulate the aesthetic effect of the live experience, not to re-create it. This is an art form in itself.

Now, back to cartridges.
We have had a number of excellent cartridges in the world. I can say this one is better than that one, but in fact, what really matters beyond a certain point is how well the cartridge matches the record grooves and how correctly the cartridge has been installed. A $150 cartridge can reproduce music with much greater satisfaction than a $3,000 cartridge which is a poor match for a particular record..

I have finally finished the announcement for my book to go onto Lenco Référence. In The Handbook, I have explained just about everything that a person could want to know about how to use Stanton and Pickering cartridges and their needles. You should find it here within a day. François is doing some work on it, and I will be posting the original English version. This announcement has actually been some of the most difficult writing that I have ever done, which is why it has taken me so long. I apologize for the delay.
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